Schedule of Meetings and Projects.
Next meeting Saturday February 13 at 9:00 AM at the Spreadbury car barn. Contact below for directions and/or more details.
January 23 Meeting
This meeting did not go as much for HHO as it did for GEET. As luck had it, I had just installed a GEET reactor on the Beetle and brought it to
the meeting. I was extremely proud of this and have high hopes for great mileage using this in conjunction with the HHO system already installed on
the Beetle. Just like with HHO this will be a learning experience and I will update information on this at this website regularly as I learn more.
This system does not yet have its own bubbler due to my haste in installing it and lack of time. However, it is connected to the HHO system and
bubbler so it does have some input to process. I accidentally broke off the wire to the momentary switch for the HHO installing this. Not having time
to double check myself I drove it most of the day Saturday without HHO and only using the water bubbler and GEET. I wouldn't have noticed it for some
time being distracted by the GEET system, but the engine vapor locked badly on me, something it does on hot days without the HHO running. This is why
I noticed the HHO was not running. I repaired the HHO and now intend to drive some just using the GEET and HHO for a baseline. I'll add a proper
bubbler for the GEET system later to see how it performs.
Jim McDonald had his Dodge Dakota Pickup there with his dry cell working. He seems to have little by little over come problems and has the system
working fairly well. He has some slow leaking yet with the old water bottles, but once he fixes that he can just drive. Jim doesn't have a bench
where he can work out the bugs so to speak, so a lot of his glitches have been worked out on the road.
Next meeting Feb. 13. By then we'll know a lot more about this GEET system. Hope to see you there.
January 9 Meeting
On this very cold morning we moved the meeting inside Wendall's living room where it was cold. I brought the assembled cell with the fitting
plates bolted into place. We discussed the need for adding extra bolt holes at the corners of the end plates for a more secure and conductive
electrical connection. The cell I brought was so modified. Basically, the design of this cell seems perfect now and can be put to use saving fuel on
just about any vehicle. We decided to meet again on January 23 when the weather would be hopefully warmer.
After the meeting we went outside to study Jim McDonald's dry cell installation on his Dodge Dakota pickup. After some careful study we noted that
his electrolyte looked bad, or suspicious. The cell did have plenty of volts and a good ground, yet made no significant HHO. Amperage being drawn by
the cell was .08 amp. Clearly something was wrong. Considering it was full of electrolyte and connected properly to current we began to scrutinize
the electrolyte which looked suspiciously dark and contaminated. At this point we found out Jim had used ethylene glycol antifreeze in the
electrolyte to prevent freezing instead of propylene glycol. The ethylene glycol would take the conductivity out of the cell which explained the lack
of amperage. Jim decided to drain the cell and find good propylene glycol for his next mix of electrolyte. By next meeting hopefully he'll have it
percolating!
December 12 Meeting
On this rainy, overcast day we discussed the welding of the stainless fittings to the plates. I brought up the fact that we can weld these solid
and distortion should not affect the integrity of the larger electrode plates since the fitting plates are separate. Once welded the distortions in
the small fitting plates can be easily hammered out. Some were still JB Welding the fittings since the tack welds do not effectively seal the
fittings. I brought some stainless fittings home to cut then weld. I intend to weld these solid which will be leak proof and the gasket should seal
these properly once bolted to the larger electrode plates. A friend I brought to the meeting, Korbet, indicated he probably could heli-arc the
fittings into place.
Korbet also examined Jim McDonald's hydrogen cell installation on the Dodge Dakota V6 pickup and mentioned the vacuum port installation may be
causing problems with the CPU misreading information from the oxygen sensor. Apparently the lean condition created by the vacuum line installation
causes the CPU to adjust fuel mixture by adding more fuel. We discussed moving the HHO line from a vacuum line to a port on the air filter box. Also
mentioned was the fact that this engine had the "Check Engine" light on prior to installation of the HHO. Possibly there could be a defective oxygen
sensor or other problem that needs to be addressed in this installation.
I drove up in the Beetle and showed off the old 304 stainless dry cell installed in this car. This unit works great and is improving not only
mileage, but the driveability of the car. I hope to inspire the membership to make an installation of one of these dry cells on their vehicles soon
before fuel prices get outrageous again. We adjourned the meeting after deciding not to meet again until January 9 due to the holidays.
November 14 Meeting
At this meeting Bernard had brought the small bolt on plates that will have the stainless fittings with the 3/8 NPT thread welded in place. He
indicated by next weekend the fittings should be welded and ready for assembly. The left over gasket material, drops from the center when making the
gaskets, will work perfectly for the gaskets to be used bolting these fitting assemblies to the dry cell itself. We discussed in detail what will be
required to begin assembly of these cells for use in our vehicles once plate conditioning and gasket cutting are completed.
Also discussed at the November 14 meeting were new discoveries bringing dry cell efficiency up to and even beyond 80% at 12-13.5 volts using
nickel and titanium clad plates. Since no one has any idea how well this will hold up to the abuse of electrolysis we decided to monitor the progress
of others before embarking on anything such as this. Our efficiency numbers around 60% represent such a tremendous improvement that we feel mileage
improvements would be substantial using these cells and we can decide to upgrade later should nickel or titanium prove worthwhile. You just can't
keep chasing rainbows while wasting fuel! Discussions also centered around the application of these in different cars or trucks whether diesel,
gasoline or EFI equipped.
As we bring cell efficiency numbers higher toward 100% efficiency we realize that total amps drawn by the cell will be more offset by the
production of the hydrogen gas. In the past we tried to limit amps to prevent dragging down our mileage figures from over-running these units
depending on engine type. Now as efficiency numbers are higher these figures change, and theoretically we can run higher amps and watch mileage
figures increase where in less efficient cells this did not happen. Basically, we need to actually run these and increase amps to watch where the
limit my be. Also discussed at this meeting was the formula we use for Faraday's Law to determined cell efficiency. I had assumed, erroneously, that
Faraday's Law was being applied to mean BTUs of hydrogen generated divided by BTUs of energy consumed to create the electricity for a net loss.
However, it seems the figures for Faraday's Law do not differentiate between electricity generated by a auto engine or electricity found in your
home. Clearly this is not a valid formula. So where do we stand on total efficiency? Hard to say, but once we get to the actual 100%
unity for an individual application we will see mileage increase continuously with amperage increase with no limit. Are we already there? Only way to
be sure is to test mileage at different amperages which has only been done on cells that had approximately 40% efficiency numbers. Our current cells
will have better numbers at higher amps, so we need to repeat our mileage/amperage tests. The best way to do this is in actual highway/city
driving.
Finally discussion drifted into the problems we have seen with EFI gasoline engines found on most every modern car. It would appear most
information on the Internet dealing with the retune of these systems to accept HHO are faulty which explains the poor results we've been getting on
these cars. In order to test this, I donated a momentary switch to Jim McDonald to install on the throttle of his EFI truck equipped with a smacks
unit that should be around 40% efficient. Driving this truck with the HHO turned off at throttle idle position should prove that most system errors
are created at idle or deceleration on these cars. Once we get good mileage figures from him we'll know the validity of this theory.
As we adjourned we decided to meet again the following Saturday, November 21, to begin the assembly of dry cells to install on the membership's
autos.
September 12 Meeting
At this meeting I laid out the details of how to set up a dry cell to get maximum flow from the fittings. I connected the dry cell to a battery
and demonstrated how well the water flow is using the proper set up of fittings and hose. Flow was remarkable and the cell was only drawing about 6
amps. Jim McDonald will order some fittings, two different sizes, to use on the dry cells we assemble. Also we discussed the pricing and availability
of stainless sheets to build these cells as well as ideas for teams to facilitate the assembly of the cells or cutting gaskets etc. Bernard will
check for plates thickness and from there we will decide whether to make the neutral plates from thinner material to lower the price per cell. This
also can make a different in the weight of each cell.
We decided to tack weld stainless 3/8" NPT fittings to the outside plates for threading in the nylon fittings. JB Well would be used to seal it
water tight. Bernard brought a triple cell he assembled with these style fittings as a demonstration. This clearly was the biggest cell of any kind
I've ever seen in person. Due to a shortage in the number of gaskets we were unable to fill and test this cell. But I'm looking forward to seeing
this cell in operation later. Also Jim McDonald showed the bolts he ordered and received for assembling these cells. These are high quality stainless
bolts, washers and nylon insert lock nuts.
We decided to meet in two weeks, September 26, to hash out the final details of our club dry cells.
August 29 Meeting
This meeting was one of the most heavily attended and best meetings we've had yet. We ran the dry cell off of a charged battery that Wendall had
ready for us. It must have had a great reserve because at the end of the meeting the ammeter showed 19.6 amps and the cell was still cranking out
HHO. It was a shame we just vented it into the atmosphere. I'm sure members would have been more than happy to have this vented into their intakes
for the drive home!
I had to leave early, but before leaving we rushed some club business and members voted to have a duplicate of this cell cut professionally.
Discussion on club members participating in the gasket cutting, unless we find a suitable one commercially available. Also we decided that once we
get the parts including bolts for assembly we could have a meeting where we would be assembling cells to save time. Changes to the cell were added
including increasing the size of the vent holes to allow for the increased flow of HHO. The current holes in the cell seem barely able to vent the
gas once the amperage goes past 15 amps and is surely incapable of venting the proper amounts of HHO should the cell be stacked or operated more
aggressively.
As the meeting adjourned we had members, task in hand, busy leaving with a new purpose. The meeting in two weeks on September 8 should be
interesting indeed as we will have a time schedule in sight for having ready to install cells soon for the membership.
August 8 Meeting
At this meeting we demonstrated and tested the Dry Cell recently assembled by Lyman Eppley and myself from 304 stainless plates provided by
Bernard Livingston. The fluid discoloration and pollution in our dry cell has gotten much worse from the first test runs of this cell in my garage. I
will disassemble it shortly to see what I find out. Bernard told me at the meeting it was the cheapest of the 304 stainless, so no telling what
garbage may be in the metal.
The meeting Saturday was the best one so far. The dry cell at 3-4 amps was percolating great with lots of good bubble flow. I didn't bring a
volume tester, but showed everyone the different figures I wrote in my notes and how it has been adding up to the maximum of around 7.8 amps. All
enjoyed watching it run and thought clearly this was the best unit we've ever had at the meetings. We took one of Wendall's 6 volt batteries and
connected it to the dry cell. It reminded us of the HydroStar on the 6 volt battery having virtually no production. It just drew some low amps, but
no gas bubbles to be seen what-so-ever. So we measured volts between the cells and came out to about 1.5 if memory serves me. Then with Bernard's
help we dead shorted two neutral plates to remove them from the mix, one on each side. This left us with 2 neutral plates instead of 3 and right at 2
volts per cell. The unit burst into action upon doing this and bubbles began to come out. Amps were low and clearly production wasn't bad, but not as
good as with 12 volts and more amps. We kept removing the short and the bubbles stopped as it dropped below 2 volts per cell. Remarkable to see how
clearly these need 2 volts or higher per cell to work properly. Then we took the 6 volt battery and connected it in series with the 12 volt battery
leaving us at 18 volts. They dry cell exploded into production and for about 30 minutes I couldn't disconnect it as everyone was so enthralled with
watching the massive bubbles popping out heading for the water holding tank. It's a good thing I used 3/8 inch hose, otherwise this amount of gas may
have choked the unit up. We experimented with cutting power to see how long it took for the bubbles to stop coming out. Upon cutting power, bubbles
stopped immediately meaning it wasn't holding back HHO. This meant that at this higher volume the gas was exiting as fast as it could make it.
Something I had wondered about myself. Had it continued to bubble for a short while after cutting power it would have been a sign the unit was
choking up with excess HHO. So, the fitting and holes between the plates are certainly adequate for heavy production even if we stack extra sets of
plates venting through the same end plates. With the cap shut on the holding tank the HHO venting at 18 volts was so dramatic that it was blowing
puffs of HHO and steam vapors. Looked exceptionally dramatic and got everyone's attention as they put their hand near the 1/4 fitting that was there.
I think it might be a good idea to use 3/8 fitting there in the future, but without water I think it worked OK just passing the gas. Sure made for
some dramatic effects as the HHO and water vapors blew out that small fitting.
At the meeting we decided to begin getting plans based on this unit and measurements. We decided this unit complete with extra bolts was a good
design. Bernard noticed the shower liner I was using for gaskets said "40 mil PVC" so it should never deteriorate. He planned on checking to see the
availability for 20 mil PVC just to try and close the gap some. Wendall felt going closer on the gap could cause the unit to suffer efficiency
because the HHO bubbles would not be able to get out properly. I told him that the only way to test that theory was to actually give it a try.
We decided to meet again on the 29th of August. During this time Wendall and Bernard decided to check the availability of 6 X 6 gaskets already
made in different materials and thicknesses. I will get some good plans on these plates to better document the measurements and assembly. In the
meantime, I plan to disassemble the unit to inspect it and run at higher amps with a pulser to document efficiency numbers.
July 25 Meeting
This spot meeting was to get the quotes from Bernard on the cost to have stainless steel plate cut to assemble our first club dry cell. At this
meeting possible conflict in design with the old plates I laid out. I decided to build mock up plates from cardboard templates to be sure the plates
with work properly stacked with no conflict between neutral plates and negative/positive plates. Bernard mentioned he could get us some test plates
made from thicker material at little cost to the club to test assemble one cell. We decided to proceed with this plan and meet again at the regular
date of August 8.
July 11 Meeting
The July 11 meeting was a very productive one as we decided to proceed with the club beginning it's version of a dry cell. Once we get some sort
of assembly and experience into the assembly of a dry cell we would better know how to construct such a cell. Dry cells have the unique advantage of
taking up less space under the hood. Since we have no experience in fabrication and construction of dry cells we decided to follow the work of others
generously provided on the Internet. Once we've constructed and tested such a cell then we would have the experience to make changes and improvements
as we see fit. Our experience already gathered would help us in this endeavor also. Considering all that is involved we made plans to meet again in
two weeks, July 25, for our next meeting.
At this meeting I brought a cell I was certain would reproduce my work as noted on a video I've posted on YouTube where I ran my VW engine on pure
hydrogen with the fuel line disconnected. We tried to duplicate this at Lyman Eppley's house prior with no success with my test cell. At the meeting
the cell leaked badly pouring foaming electrolyte out through the top. Since this is my test cell, all work I've done up until now documenting
efficiency numbers at different amps on a set amount of plate surface area is now suspect. I removed the magnets and funnels, hence the foaming
problem. The reason for the removal of the magnets and funnel was due to the fact that engine vacuum at Lyman's house caused the vinyl flow tubes to
such flat shutting off water flow. The cell itself being sealed then filled up with HHO creating a dangerous and less productive situation. By
removing all of this I felt I could run this cell with no flow problems experienced before. However, foaming and cell leaking filled the bubbler with
foam and eventually sent the foam into the engine causing it to finally shut down. I've gotten the cell for the Gremlin ready and this should more
closely approximate the previous cell I was running often in the VW and should have no vacuum problems or foaming problems. Next attempt should be
better. I also am currently using this cell to duplicate the tests for efficiency I've already run to verify accuracy. I'll see about running an
engine, probably the one on my VW, on pure hydrogen from water with the fuel line disconnected at the July 25 meeting. The July 25 meeting should get
us started on procuring materials for the fabrication of a dry cell.
June 13 Meeting
This meeting had me bring a hastily assembled cell that came apart on me before I could fill it with electrolyte. Lyman Eppley brought a better
cell and we ran it connected to the alternator on my AMC Gremlin. Unit performed remarkably well producing substantial amounts of HHO. We filled the
cell with very weak electrolyte as Lyman had already partially filled the cell with some strong electrolyte. Don't remember the amps exactly, but
think we were drawing under 20 amps seeing great volume of gas pouring out. I neglected to bring the volume measuring device so we didn't get any
information on output or efficiency. What was remarkable with the fact that the alternator upgrade to 100 amps on the Gremlin appeared to be money
well spent. Even with the unit already installed running at 12-14 amps the alternator pulled the extra amperage of Lyman's unit and still showed 13.5
volts on the volt meter. I was impressed with that.
Our next meeting has been moved to our normal meeting date of July 11. This meeting we plan to attempt to run our 1200 CC test engine on pure HHO
from water. I've already done this on the larger engine, 1600 CCs, in my 67 Beetle. The club engine being small, 1200 CCs, should be much easier to
run on hydrogen than my larger VW engine, 1600 CCs. As of now our plans are to run an engine entirely on hydrogen produced from water at the July 11
meeting.
May 9 Meeting
At this meeting we discussed club business for the future of the HydroStar project and set into motion goals for the club. Discussion into
designing simple easy to install units that any club member could install and utilize to save money on fuel in the meantime while the club researched
new ideas and technologies. It was decided that by the end of summer any club member could have a simple yet efficient unit on their vehicle, should
they desire, to save money on fuel. Also I committed to researching the best efficiency range per square inch of plate (electrode) at a standard
1/16th gap and 3 neutral plates (4 cells). This way anyone could build a unit for their vehicle and get peak efficiency without guessing. The
membership also decided to sell certain parts of the HydroStar on E-Bay that we will never use and no longer need. Money from this sale could be
returned to the club treasury for future projects. Relating to club members building units to install on their vehicles, I handed out charts that
gave savings in gallons of fuel per 25,000 miles of driving depending on vehicle mileage prior to the increase in mileage. On these charts a person
could evaluate how much savings in gallons could be achieved, depending on percent mileage increase on any particular vehicle. I wanted the
membership to plan ahead as spending an excess amount of money to increase mileage, especially on vehicles getting good mileage, could take a long
time to return the investment while high consumption vehicles would see bigger savings more rapidly. This way anyone can evaluate the cost
effectiveness to install any fuel mileage device depending on cost.
Once club business was concluded Lyman Eppley and I requested a volume test on one of the Mason jar units some club members currently employ on
their vehicles. Dr. Spreadbury let me connect a volume tester on the Mason jar unit in his Beetle. Once we got the unit operating we could not get
enough HHO from the unit to measure within 3 minutes at 1.1 amps. After checking hose connections we decided to disconnect the volume tester and
moved it to the Mason jar unit David Kirby brought which was sitting on a table. We increased the strength of the baking soda until the unit was
drawing 4 amps We never could not get enough HHO to measure even after passing 5 minutes time. We decided to drop further testing as this clearly was
not a design we wanted to incorporate into any further projects. Possibly these units act more as a humidifier to increase mileage instead of being
an efficient HHO generator. That being said, even very small amounts of HHO have effects on mileage if not drawing very much current.
After the meeting, about one day, I noticed I had received a message on YouTube relating to one of the HydroStar videos I posted. The sender
provided information that the plans we were using on the fabrication of the HydroStar were faulty and there existed better information. The
implication was that a properly operating HydroStar would achieve "overunity" and that the designer had worked with Stan Meyer. At this time I'm
holding off listing the HydroStar printed circuit board on E-Bay until I get a reply on the possible HydroStar revisions. Lyman Eppley was in the
process of checking the contents of the circuit board kit and making a list of parts to be used in the listing on E-Bay should we decide to continue
with the sale.
April 11 Meeting
At this meeting members present were treated to some good demonstrations of different hydrogen cells brought by myself and Monty. Monty's cell is
a tube cell that was encased in a clear container so performance could be watched. Monty's cell resembles a shorter version of the Stan Meyer cell.
At this meeting Monty gave members great information on places to purchase unique fittings that make construction of these units better and easier.
He also brought a long lead that could be connected to a running car which seems to be the ideal power source to power these hydrogen generators.
I bought my cell to this meeting to demonstrate the dramatic effect of water circulation provided by the venturi action of my cell. My cell was
running at an impressive 1.3 liters per minute gas production (65% efficient Faraday) to show members what is possible from one of these units. One
experimental feature of my cell was the utilization of some stainless steel screen material in the neutral plates. No data to show any improvement in
efficiency and no way of knowing how well this will hold up to long term use. As my unit ran for several minutes I brought a temperature sensor to
show how fast the temperature in the cooling tube also rose showing great water circulation. I had a bubbler connected to the unit to show
production. Unbeknownst to me the bubble had a slight leak which didn't show much on my unit due to the dramatic HO production. Later when we
connected the HydroStar tubes to the bubbler the production was so low that it could not push enough gas into the bubbler to move the water down. I
didn't realize this until I arrived home and began to check out the bubbler. None-the-less I was impressed with the simplicity of my unit's
construction and low cost to fabricate. Until we discover something better and more efficient I felt the membership could profit from constructing
similar units for immediate use to save money on fuel.
I also laid out my own observations in plate size, number of neutral plates and overall amount of electrode sections affect amperage and
efficiency. I feel strongly each unit should be designed for a particular application depending on engine size or whether the engine burns gasoline
or diesel. These cells have an area where efficiency peaks at certain amperage and HHO production depending on size and amounts of electrodes. If a
unit is too big for a smaller engine, then it loses efficiency as electrolyte is diluted down to lower the amperage. If amperage is too high for an
engine depending on size or type, then mileage and efficiency also suffers. If the unit is too small and production is increased by using stronger
electrolyte then the unit efficiency also drops affecting performance. I had figures showing how one 12 square inch positive plate and one 12 square
inch negative plate perform with 3 neutral plates of the same size. This set up has an area where efficiency peaks, therefore if an engine requires
more HO production it should stack these units being careful not to pass the maximum amperage the engine can pull. I tested different configurations
utilizing zero, one, three, four and six neutral plates and found at 12 to 14 volts the efficiency best with three neutral plates. I did these tests
using stainless plates of approximately 12 square inches and also used the same electrolyte. I did not test the different configurations at different
electrolyte strengths or amperage ranges which could affect results. I also did not test whether two sets, for one example, were the same as one set
of twice the square inches. I plan to do more research on this later and have better information.
We also studied the HydroStar electrode performance using a clear tube for better observation. More at the HydroStar page.
March 14 Meeting
At this meeting more discussion on the HydroStar as we discuss recent testing with some circuit changes and using higher voltage from batteries
and chargers combined. The results have been disappointing thus far and we discussed a plan by Lyman Eppley to build a stand alone circuit for the
toroid coil that increases voltage and hopefully magnetism. It was also decided that at this meeting we would meet less often for the club and meet
as needed for the officers to update progress on projects in progress. Communication would be by e-mail and phone to keep members apprised of new
information.
Our objectives are to separate fact from myth such as do this units actually work? Are they bad for your engine? Seems so many people have
constructed some of these units and swear by the performance. Many of our members have either built a simple unit or purchased a unit with positive
results which would indicate these are worth the effort.
We invite all who want to participate or have any input to join us at any of the meetings. You can contact us by e-mail by clicking the link
above. For spam control don't change the subject line as this is how I screen credible e-mails from others. You can also find more contact
information at the Contact Us page.
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GEET
Project
